. >> when the master of the senate became the president of the united states. at the start of this brisk saturday morning in november, we are seeing some friends in a new light. we we're going to show you a long, lost interview with linden johnson conducted in the last weeks. what was actually a miserable vice presidency for him. we will examine what happened when he became president 50 years ago this weekend. what is it that makes us so obsessed with the escapades of a

mayor of a canadian city, toronto's rob ford. we will head north of the border to find out. we will be joined by a real live full blooded canadian to make sense of it. we will also look at the turning points for the race for the white house. the things that move polls and change voters and decide a presidency. they are not all what you might imagine them to be. but first, it was never supposed to happen, especially not the way it happened, but 50 years ago this morning as americans woke up in shock, in mourning, wondering if what they had experienced the day before had all been some terrible dream, linden johnson woke up as president of the united states before all of the awfulness in dallas, lbj's official vice presidential schedule had him slated to be in austin, texas on november 23rd, 1963. he would be attending the dedication of a synagogue, instead, tow, he was back in walk. suddenly the most powerful man in the world a. week of

remembrances of john f. kennedy, a week of reflections of the impact of the legacy of the meaning of his presidency, culminated in a formal observance yesterday of the 50th anniversary in commemoration of his murder, which means half a century ago at this exact moment, americans were wondering what nbc was wondering. >> how the question in the national line, of course, is who is linden johnson? >> well, the ander to that question had changed dramatically in those 24 hours. it was a lot more complicated than anyone could have appreciated at the time and more complicated than most realize today. the linden johnson awoke on november 22nd, 1963, was vastly different than the one frantically sworn less than 12 hours later. vice president linden johnson had fallen from the heights of power in the 1950s for being what historian robert carroll dubbed the master of the senate, all the way to the margins of

power. a man whose three years as vice president confirmed another text held the same office, john nance garner had once said. the vice presidency isn't worth a warm bucket of spit. johnson was a shadow of his former self. they regarded him as a has been, joking whatever happened to linden johnson, kennedy mocked his folksiness. only eight weeks before the assassination, this was the defeated slow moving linden johnson dressed in formally -- informally, he was dressed for an interview at his texas. the interviewer was ray miller. johnson replied to his question with the body language of a man just going through the motions. >> a lot of people thought when you gave up the majority leadership in the senate to become vice president that you would find it a comedown. how do you find it? >> well, i can't imagine why

anyone would think that. i don't think vice presidents should come down from anything. only two officers in the land were elected by all the people, the president and the vice president i have never known any majority or senator willing to serve as vice president if his people are willing to elect him. >> nobody thought johnson was the sending most powerful man then. "life" magazine quoted the no. 2 man in washington talking about the president's brother, robert kennedy, perhaps lbj's most bitter rival in all of washington. in all of politics. of course, to call them rivals suggested in the days before fate made him president, lbj was in the same league as bobby kennedy when it came to power, clout, significance. when it came to having a political future. >> that would have been a gross distortion of the concept of a rivalry. months later safely ensconced in the white house, lbj smoke e spoke of the misery he had felt

as vice president. >> i did an independent senate, the cabinet had employees under your jurisdiction here. >> all right. >> i don't think that anybody would recognize them except ted kennedy. >> he said being vice president is like a cut dog. that's who lbj was in the months, the weeks, the minutes and the seconds before those shots rang out in dallas putting personal indignities, he was in serious trouble a. scandal one that involved lbj's protege bobby baker, sex and influence pedaling. the baker apair sparked new interest in how they amasd fortunes after 30 years on a government salary. november, 1963 that, powder keg

was about to blow on november 22nd as jfk's motorcade were working through dallas. they were meeting to a project titled linden johnson's money. the senate began sniffing around the baker controversy. llinden johnson's shelf life as a politician began expiring. he was going to bounce him from the 1964 ticket. with understand that story and life ran and all that dirty laundry was aired. >> that decision would be a no brainer, kenen di would jettison lbj. that was that. it was hardly without merit back then. it was during that senate hearing into the baker affair, though, with the documents, checks, invoices linking the vice president to illicit behavior that someone burst in to say the president had been shot. and that radically changed linden johnson's life and so many others, tregerred an instant transformation. he wanted to be president all

his life. he knew exactly what he was supposed to do in that moment. he was calm. he was decisive. he took action. he told every kennedy aid he needed them ever, more than president kennedy did. he addressed a joint session of congress they began a term with kennedy's stalled legislative program into a reality no memorial, or asian or eulogy could honor president kennedy's memory and the earliest possible passage of the civil rights bill for which he not so long. it is time now to bring the next chapter and to write it in the books of law. >> we remember this week's 50th anniversary for all that was lost and so much was lost. but it also went from being the momentous consequential periods in american history.

it was lbj who channelled the grief over jbk's death. to twist arms and aceh civil rights under law. to push for his own wild liam bishs war on poverty and to get his way. jfk's death gave way to the lbj landslide of 1964, one of the most thorough presidential victories apassed. a power lbj with an extraordinary super house and senate, gave us perhaps the most productive session in american history, a congress that set a standard for sweeping progressive change that no future congress has lived up to. kennedy's tragic death gave rise to what we might today remember as one of the greatest presidencies in history. were it not for a military entangle. in southeast asia, that would eclipse to erase in many people's minds what lbj achieved on a domestic front.

all that downfall was still to come in 1964, back then at the national christmas tree lighting ceremony, johnson said, quote, these are the most hopeful times since christ was born in bethlehem. all that began today, 50 years ago today we will show a review and exchange from that previously sealed vice presidential interviewite after this.

. >> when did you discover this flare for politics? >> i don't know i ever discovered it. i always had it since 4, 5, 6, 7-years-old. i. when i was shining shoes in johnson city in world war i, it

was then my announced ambition to some day go to the senate. >> that was vice president linden johnson, this aired 50 years ago today to help them eliminate a president. we have author of numerous books, including "take charge" on linden johnson's ascension to white house. thank you for joining us this morning we sort of set it up how miserable so take us through the transformation playing out at this moment 50 years ago, what changed in lbj when he became president and what was his strategy as he became president? >> i thought you set it up brilliantly. we now know worrying about being on john kennedy's ticket in 1964

the fight before the 22nd of november the last real talk between kennedy and johnson, they were in this room in houston and kennedy basically chewed it out because the fxs of the democratic party in texas were not getting together and kennedy blamed johnson, johnson stormed out of the room. jfk went to see jaerks jackie said what was that about in those raised voices. jfk said that's linden. he's in trouble. which really gives you an idea of his situation just before it became president t. unthinkable happened 50 years ago yesterday and obviously the first thing he has to do is mend the country and make sure they realize they're lucky enough to have someone with 30 years experience in government but at the same time he's worried he's gotten information, lee oswald the accused assassin may have had close ties with the cuban government and just about the first thing that johnson was

worrying about inside was if there is a piece of information that says oswald was acting as an agent for cuba or the soviet union if killing john kennedy, americans will demand we go to war against the soviet union and might kill 40 million people. nobody knew it on the 23rd of november 50 years ago, that's what was going through his head. >> he was also terrified politically in even in 64. i wonder because that brings us to the first major legislative pushes in advance, that was civil rights, how much of that was because lbj's reputation before was the conservative southern senator. >> 1948. he had run almost with white supreme cyst language. >> exactly. so much of his push was this was

the real lbj? >> i think it was genuine. i think have civil rights when he ran in texas in '48. he now had that about. in case he doesn't, a new president after john kennedy had been killed in his state, if kennedy had been for civil rights, he would have been in trouble he now he would be likely to challenge him in '64 as well, he said to his aids, what's the biggest thing i have to worry about? they said the civil rights bill dragged den e kennedy down 15 or 20 points. he may not have gotten elected until '64. johnson to his great credit said what the hell is this presidency for if i can't use it for civil

rights? >> that's interesting, i dug up this interview that lbj had given to ray miller in houston. >> which i think is amazing. i think that's rarely been seen. >> this is an interesting passage where lbj has disagreements with the presidency. let's look at it and talk about it? >> sure. >> do you think we are doing everything we should to protect and serve? >> i can't think of another thing i can do in the state or the local or federal level i think i would call them mistake s. overall, we have much to be proud of and very little to be ashamed of. >> he's calling president kennedy the other fellow, talking about mistakes there.

what was it that lbj disagreed with? how different was he as a president than kennedy? >> what he is doing is make it clear if anything he is more pro civil rights than kennedy is. also in may, the spring or actually the spring or summer in may of 1963, he gave a speech not cleared by the white house. it was way out front of what kennedy was saying about civil rights. it was like when joe biden came out for marriage equality before it made kennedy look as strong as he should be. the big reservation that johnson had was he was a picasso in dealing with congress. john kennedy may have been a great president. he was almost a finger painter compared to johnson.

manly because johnson had the feeling or he had the feeling you let johnson get in charge of one area, in three minutes, he will be controlling my white house. >> the period where things in part you brought out, other historians, lbj has been reassessed. he passed away, his legacy had been totally equipped by vietnam. can you talk about in his final days lbj reckoned with how his great society civil rights, how that was being torthen. >> he was expected to have a large place in american memory. he didn't have it. 1973 as you say, steve, people thought of him as a vietnam president, they had forgotten

the wonderful things he had done, especially in 1964 and 1965. so he died a very unhappy man but about a month before that, he had the symposium at the lbj library, brought a lot of civil rights leaders in. he had heart pains that day in public to get through it he ended it using the words we shall overcome. so it was emotional. he never lived to see the reassessment i agree with you, it is now happening today. >> people remember how young lbj was when he died. he was only 64. i want to thank you for joining us. >> my pleasure. >> we will join to the present day t. race between the parties not to come in last. that's next.

. >> we have been talking about the political environment in

1963. now we will fast forward to the present day. we are joined by the washington bureau chief for the is the sun times." sasha eisen berg, author of the victory lab and continue for the magazine mon cal and a staff writer at the daily boast.com. as for what we're going to talk about, there appears to be a common thread linking the numbers of the week. congress isn't popular. only 11% a proving of their job pmpls right now. the individuals in congress aren't faring much better. 21% of americans approve how congress is doing their job. the number for democrats is 26%. that's down 5 points from last month. meanwhile over at the white house, the latest polls give obama higher approval numbers, still the lowest he had sense he became president. asked who they want to have more influence over if country, obama or republicans in congress, the answer was pretty much a wash. the holidays fast approaching,

the end of 2013, beyond that, it raises the question of what will the parties be rung on in the 20 froen mid-terms. can they say? our job approval numbers are down, the american people are unhappy with us. pleads vote for us anyway. you are more unhappy with those guys. it seemed to work for democrats weeks ago when voters more than they embraced democrat harry mcauliffe. now republicans are convinced they have a winning negative message of their own thanks to the obama care rollout headaches. i guess i'll throw this open to the panel. if we had this discussion three weeks ago i would have been talking about the virginia governor's race a couple weeks ago, the fallout from the shutdown and the debt ceiling brinksmanship. they would have said, well, i haven't seen a republican brand this poisonous since impeachment in 1988. the intafs non-electable candidates. therefore, clearly, there is an

advantage here for democrats. now in some of the more recent polk, we are seeing that's at least temporarily neutralized by the health care problems. is one more permanent than the other? >> i this i the fact that we saw the republican tell you that maybe the democratic brand will recover just as quickly going forward. the 2014 election i think will be not on 2014 issues. one of those issues will be the affordable care act, the next rollout and how it's going. other than that, i'm not sure what we can really say. we can look to the issues, particularly the local races. we can see what you are looking at. on the macropicture, i'm not sure it's hat the pont we could say what's going on. >> are we seeing the republican brand in the past now weeks bounce back or is there more that there has been more negatives than democrats? >> i think it's been, the administration had a hard time of the rollout of the affordable care act and the way they've

handled it isn't nimble. all criticism isn't bad. i think the tendency of this administration is to say you push back. all criticism is not bad. especially when it comes to democrats, like president clinton and others. so i think that the administration is smart not to be moved by whatever the poll numbers say today because we know in politics that poll numbers are up and some are down. >> they can be up in the same place. so here's an example of trying to make sense of the poll numbers on the issue of health care. this is the cbs news poll, his approval rating on the issue of health care. 32% approve. oh, god, that's a disaster. that's terrible. look at this, same poll, do you want, obama care, is it working? only 7% say it is. it has good things that need changes, 48%. add those two together. you got a majority. 43% say the law is repealed entirely. those numbers are consistent the last two dwroers.

>> the news came to the republican agenda, so throughout the year, people are vokeing 40 something times in the house to repeal obama care. there is some idea they were fighting a long lost war that they should be moving on to other fronts, it was seen as an obsession. it turns out sort of all of that energy that was spent trying to, you know, persuade an electorate not just to share their position on going forward but to care about this as a 2013-2014 issue was well placed for reasons entirely outside their control. >> they almost got lucky. >> right. >> here is an internal number in that poll you cited, though. i think it's very important. it said many americans say they don't understand how the health care law will affect them. it's 48% say they do. 48% say it's confusing. in that number i put on the panel for discussion is where the battle will be. this is not just a matter of

getting the website working and getting people signed up, the place where the democrats can save themselves here is getting a redo, which they will do because you always do in this business. you get to restart things as many times as you want to finally explain it. if you ask people, you know, probably if you took a poll and said medicare, do you like it? you might get the same result. because a lot of people are confused about it. isn't that medicaid? so i think in that poll that 48-48 split is an important number. >> this is a federal mandate. >> that means that everybody is affected by it. people are affected by this. folks that thought they weren't going to be avlged by this, could keep their plan, fine out they can't keep their plan. >> the other issue. >> exactly my point. we have room. >> we cope saying if this website gets up and running, how many people will find out they have benefits. >> and the people who got these renewal notices can find alternatives that they are happy

with. >> i want to, go ahead, yeah. >> so there is sort of two competing constituencies here, you have the 5 million or so americans who is lost or had their health insurance changes as a result of the affordable care act the 40 million or so americans who didn't have health insurance to begin with. so the question going forward is how many, leak whose voice ends up weighing more? 5 million americans? >> may i say one thing about that? people without, know some of the answer now in a massive focus group. the people that have insurance are organized and they speak far louder than the -- >> which is why the story of getting any kind of national health care was a century long story, because that constituency would get frightened so easily and stop progress. i want to shift gears little bit. we talked so much about the messages coming out of virginia. the other premier swing states in the country, colorado. i want to make some sense of interesting developments in that state in the last few weeks. we will show you what those are and talk about that when we come back.

.

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. >> i was teaseing colorado before the break so set this up. this is the presidential result last year, romney versus obama. obama won 51-46. this was i think the second-most mirror-like state in the country when it comes to the national result. virginia one of the closest to the actual national result. colorado was the second closest. you can see it makes this one of the premier states a barometer. we talked about the warning signs in virginia. if they nominated a far right candidate who lost an election he probably shouldn't have lost if history means anything. what happened in colorado is really interesting, though the state has moved to if competitive blue friendly category in the last decade, democratic governor, democratic legislature. they did gun control, civil unions, getting actual gay marriage is a complicated process out there. they have now in the last year been subjected to democratic senators recalled in colorado over the gun issue, an education

funding bill. they lost a few weeks ago. now we have this new incomes here, the democratic governor, this guy was supposed to be a rising national star a year ago. he deserved re-election in colorado. 42% yes, 49% no. here's a head-to-head matchup with them against tom tancredo. talk about a far right candidate than cuccinelli. in a dog fight with tancredo. i'm trying to make sense of it. from a democratic standpoint they got to feel good about what happened in virginia. here they are pursuing what i think by reasonable standards is a democratic agenda in colorado he is even paying a price for it. >> i think it play be a function of two things. you have a lot of people generally frustrated with politics. i think it's carrying over to the perception of the elected officials and i unfortunately don't know the specs about

colorado, so i'm not going to make announcements. should they be making broad announcements? >> hundreds a year. >> i will say generally when elected officials pursue advance of an agenda, there is push-back. even when the public likes what is happening. they're not always, they don't always approve of sort of the speed of it or the extent of it and given sort of economic conditions around the country, there is sort of like a generalized frustration with that. >> that has been the republican -- >> this was the republican calculation when obama became president. wasn't it? it was that economic anxiety is so high. finally democrats for the first time in years, they have the house the white house, they will pursue their agenda. we as republicans just have to say no. just have to obstruct as much as we can. all that anxiety and frustration will be channelled to us. because we are a protest vehicle.

it's the story nationally, isn't it? >> i think republicans would like to be a little more positive than that and say we are the party of fiscal responsibility and certainly in the 2016 race, there got to be a much bigger tent than 2012 or 2028. >> that being said, in 2014 even though all politics are local, we have one issue, of the affordable care act which is national and afblts people everywhere. >> is that all the republicans want to run next year? this week you hear mitch mcconnell and boehner, they come back to obama care. >> this morning we're calling at this time affordable care act said of obama care. first thing, colorado by the way, they have almost a third of independent voters. so what you have to consider in that state is there is a whole restless group out there that go back and forth. obama care is what the national republican house cooperation is saying is their best issue right now. >> they still think fundamentally it's a negative

message. >> right now, let's think of a period of time where people are deciding to run for office right now. it's going to be locked in state by state as we start the campaign cycle and what is important now in this issue is candidate recruit. . so i know this sounds a little technical, actually, if you are a potential republican candidate and you have to zwlied to get in or not, i think having an issue you think may be strong now that could last through this cycle, help the party recruit stronger candidates, even more centrist, that's more than tea party issues. >> we will say this, a television spectacle made for about and by television transfixed americans, it was a phenomenon a generation ago. it is about to become one all over again right here on this set. i will explain what i mean by that right after this.

. >> so about that pla jor television event -- major television event in the 1970s and ''80s fblgs prime time broadcast entertainment. the battle of the network stars. such intense competition they can only do it once or twice a year. here's jen from 1979 with teen abc. headlined by a precharles in charge willie ames. future "airplane" star robert hayes, competing against team cbs. valerie bertinelli and ed as ner lou grant the team cap taken and the menaceing team nbc. look, robert conrad, happy buyington and erin grey from buck rodgers and the 25th century. they swam, ran, barrelled through obstacle courses in a grueling high stakes comp tilgs.

all of it emceed by the one the only many howard co sell, even booted from monday night football, when there were no ali fights to call. he still had battle of thephoric stars t. last battle aired in 1988, was never revived until today. because we got our own battle of the msnbc stars here on "up against the clock" and it's next. anything we purchase for the paper cottage goes on our ink card.

. >> live from studio 3a in rockefeller center's usa, it's time for a special battle of the fourth quarter stars edition of "up against the clock." originally from new york, new york, she played politics for keeps. this is msnbc's own karen fenny. and a los angeles native, she's the most nutritious part of your weekend morning news diet. this is alex witt.

you've heard of chris, you've heard of cher, from randolph, massachusetts, msnbc's own one day wonder. the cycle's trey. now the host of "up against the clock," steve kornacki. >> thank you studio audience, thank you, bill wolf, thank you contestants and everyone at home, welcome to a special edition this morning, the battle of the new yorker stars now you know the rules. we have three rounds of play. we have wrong answers that will cost you. there are a few instant bonuses scattered in these questions the studio audience as always, i beg you, please, no outburstst. with that, i will ask you, are you ready to play? >> absolutely. >> let's get this battle of the starsened way, let's put 100 seconds on the clock and start

with the 100 point round, we go with this. after their intrafamily dispute was publicly aired this week, mary cheney said she is not supporting her sister liz's campaign. >> correct. 100 points for trey. after pleading guilty. >> trey radel. >> someone came to play. 100 point question. among the 16 americans on whom president obama bestowed the presidential med am of freedom on wednesday was this recently deceased long serving hawaii senator. >> daniel inoway. >> this is an instant bonus question, trey. obama awarded the med am of freedom to what retired basketball coach. >> dean smith. >> 100 more points. >> he didn't hit the buzzer. >> he gets it. >> 850,000 or 600,000, the department of housing and urban development announced this week it estimates this many americans

were homeless in 2013. >> 600,000. >> 100 poepts for karen. 100 point tossup. rand paul, whose previous offer of sharing a beer was rebuff proposed to share fried twink can i with what governor? time, chris christie. 100 point question. this former vice presidenttial nominee and two time presidential hopeful and all around two timer announced he is opening a new law firm. >> john edwards. >> correct. 100 point question t. grandson of this former president filed paperwork this week. >> scott bush. >> encorrect. the grandson of this former president filed paperwork to run for land commissioner. >> george prescott bush. >> incorrect. the grandson of this former president. container. >> george bush. >> please be more specific. >> herbert walker. >> 100 points for karen.

>> we it was the syntax. strong. trey 300 points, alex negative 100 because of the syntax. we go to the 200 point round. we put 100 seconds on the clock. 200 point questions. these are a little harder, contestants. with this we go. the senate recessed on thursday without endorsing a plan to give military prosecutors a plan to pursue sexual assault cases in a bill crafted by this. alex. >> jill brand, the senator that crafted. we should be talking about expanding social security benefits. >> senator warren. correct. 200 point question. it was revealed tuesday that this motion picture association of america chairman made more than $3 million last year, a far cry from the 174,000 he received

as a senior. >> chris dodd. >> he was the senior senator in 2010. an enstant bonus question. when dodd retired from the senate in 2010, he was replaced by whom? >> oh the guy the white guy with the thing. >> time. correct answer richard blumenthal. back with this 200 point toss-up question. this former gubernatorial candidate critically wounded when his own son stabbed him was released from the hospital on friday. 200 correct. 200 point question, even though it day bowed this week with ro bust ratings, this show, featuring toronto mayor rob ford was can selled by canada's "sun news" television channel. >> we were just talking about that i don't know the name of the show. >> time. the answer is ford nation. 200 point question, this governor signed marriage equality into law. >> this state, illinois.

>> that's correct syntax. and that brings us to the end of the round karen finney has moved in front. trey at 500. a wide opened battle of the network stars and it will climax with this. the ph.d. level. 300 point questions. this is where we will crown a network star champion. 100 seconds on the clock. 300 point question. is this three democratic senators broke with their party when it changed not rules to do away with philly busters on thursday. karen. >> landrieu, manchin and, oh god. >> time. i'm going to finish the question. red state democrats mike prior and joe manchin were two of them. which state democrat was the third? >> oh. >> time. it was carl levin of michigan. 300 point question, this tea party republican who many

believe cost the gop a winnable colorado senate seat in 2010 is three points behind mark udahl. incorrect in a poll released this week. call time. ken buck 300 point question this outspoken senator said he or she is opened to making a presidential bid. >> bernie sanders. >> correct. >> sanders formally served as the mayor of vermillion's largest city, name it. >> i didn't hear. >> sanders formally served as the mayor of vermont's largest city. name it. >> burlington. >> correct. 300 more points for kerry. president obama will speak about the economy next week at the headquarters of what? >> dreamworks. >> one of the last surviveing members of john f. kennedy's cabinet who also proved to be its most entouringly controversial member was this defense 2nd who passed away.

>> robert macnamara passed away in 2009. on thursday, it was the nomination of this woman to the d.c. circuit court of appeals. >> patricia mills. >> correct. >> that ends the round. this is going to be a close one. >> karen finney. alice, 400. container finney, congratulations. >> it's all good. >> we have a prize package. bill wolf is here to tell you about it. >> as our champion, will you have your name printed in exquisite sharpee on the coveted "up against the clock" gold cup. you get to take the froef home an show it off to family, friends and school children for one week. you will receive an appearance this coming week on nsnbc "the cycle" airing weekdays. 3:00 eastern time. you will get to play in our bonus round for today's grand prize of $50 gift certificate to clifton, new jersey.

in the greater meadowlands area. back to you, steve. >> look at that, so karen and trey will be reunited next friday on "the cycle." they win that roughs cut. at some point gift certificate, jackpot bonus question. bill clinton became the seventh president in history to receive the presidential medal of freedom. who was the first? >> ah, roosevelt. >> incorrect. union f. kennedy and the roughs, it is safe for a week but, karen, we do. we want to congratulate you. we want to thank alex witt and trey for the competition and alex and trey you will not be leaving us empty handed. we have a home edition for you. remember ages 12 and over only.

small children have choked on it in the past. be kail. we have the leaderboard. this is our season of up against the clock. karen, we can see you are as a division winner, you get a star next to your name. but you will be back for our tour of champions because you have won your match today. any parting thoughts? >> senator blumenthal, my apologies. >> alex. >> this was awesome. i have to come back and do it seriously. the weekend stars and you can be the honorary weekend. >> trey, that was, we have never seen a start to the show as impressive. you were on a tear in that first round. >> sorry. >> i had to get one. anyway, we will be here next woke. another battle for the ages on "up against the clock." i want to thank our network

staffs for joining us. we will be back with the show. [ male announcer ] if you're a rinse user,

. >> they are supposed to be the huge turning points in the presidential election, the game changers. you heard that term once or twice, maybe 12,000 times. in 2012, we had a few of them. there was mitt romneys debate and bill clinton's grand slam of a convention speech. you remember those big moments. there were a lot of moments treated as big moments when they happened, looking back, we can clearly see where lesser moments were noun moments. they were fake game changers. when these events or non-events happened, they were all too afternoon trumpeted by journalists, pumped up perhaps to beat the boast of covering a

modern presidential campaign i remember when democratic strategist said anne rosen isn't work a day in her life. >> that set off a cable news firestorm. >> the comments that hillary rosen made today certainly have awakened many mama grizzlies across the nation. >> they are fund raising with a low dollar campaign do fate $6 to get your quote mom's drive the economy bumper sticker and send a message to president obama. >> i don't think it's a manufactured controversy as some have called it. these controversies really pick at a scab of something that's really pulseing in the american electorate. a debate about women's rights, about women's role. >> it's easy to see now that this like so many eruptions like it in 2012 was not a game changer. but where exactly go you draw the line? is there even such a thing as a game changer? two political scientists who have wren a new book believe the concept is wildly exaggerated

and overstated. even sure the supposed big changes of the game changers of last year, the 47% actually moved the polling data that much in the end. in their new book, they argue these moments obsessed over by repo reporters pretty much didn't matter. they say it depends on the conditions, especially the state of the economy, efforts to mobilize and sway voters. it's easy to ridicule campaign journalism and see structural factors account for a large amount of what happens in presidential elections. it is still the question of whether politics is a scenes or an art. if you are truly maish to put a number on, to reduce the data, the mishmash of stimuli and reaction and emotioning, perhaps the most succinct skeptical take on the limits of political science is expressed by the blogger digby, i remain

unconvinced that politics can be boiled down to data sets, particularly when we have such limited data to draw upon. there is too much culture, involved for me to see it as anything but an art, a dark art much of the time. an art nonetheless. back here to talk about this, sasha eisen berg the writer of the "victory lab." karen finney, the reigning up against the clock champion you must say lynn sweet is back the washington bureau chief the chicago sun times and john site, a co-author of that book we are talking about. we will be talking about the gamble. associate political science at george washington university. we built this around the argument that you and len are making this book the skaept cal take is the idea that you guys are saying campaigns don't matter, presidential campaigns don't matter. explain exactly what your thesis

is. you say they do matter, just not nearly as much as people think? >> that's right. what we are saying here you have two well matched candidatings. each have a billion dollars to spend. in some sense, their respective campaigns are can selling the effects of the other out. so in some sense the campaigns are mattering both are mattering at the same time in the same way. >> that makes it hard for either tore get that advantage. if you want to go to other kind of campaigns, back to the presidential primaries, for example, down the ballot to state legislative races. those are the kind of races i think you can see campaign evenlgs much more clearly. in some sense, we spend time in general elections looking in the least likely game changes. >> i want to talk about how this affects all races. let's start with 2012, a common point of a discussion to understand what did and didn't matter from your perspective and everybody else's perspective here, let's take probably the highest profile. i have hated the term game changer, double down is the

title of the books. >> the biggest game change for lack of a better word is the 47% video of mitt romney and democrats use that endlessly. it got so much coverage. what is your take on what the actual effect of that was on president obama winning last year by about 5 million votes? >> if you look at the average of the polls tarp in the field in and around the release of that video, you just didn't see a lot of movement. the best we were able determine drilling down into the polling data we had at our disposal was some republican voters who were supporters of romney perhaps became them particularly undecide, but they came right back to romney after the first debate. >> so when you hear something leak that, someone who has worked in politics. i imagine if you had been working for the dnc, you get your hands on the take, this is going to be the thing you guys are doing. how do you respond to that? >> keep it all in perspective,

having borkd with many pollsters. that's only one piece of the puzzle. right? my favorite thing about the 2008 election is every woke it went on longer and longer than pundits and these smart people predicted. it's human beings we are talking about. so you can only measure so much of that. so the 47%, i think things leak that, essentially either reenforce the narrative. so that was the narrative about mitt romney. it reenforced it. it was words right out of his mouth, just like in, you know, other things that people say. remember that it's a game of inches at this point because when you are putting together a presidential campaign strategy and trying to win. are you looking at a state like ohio. are you locking county by county, city by city, where are those votes coming from? that is the minutia. maybe it was only five people. >> can i say something? it's almost from a data

standpoint imperceptible but it shows up at a microscop ec level or is it something you can't even measure? >> you can't actually measure. i would take exception with the 47%. i think one of the biggest game changers of 2012 is all the voter i.d. laws. the backlash of that actually brought people out, made people so angry in a visceral way and in a different way than in the 47% comment even could. that's why you saw people waiting in line eight or nine hours. >> that is a game changer. >> sasha, here is something lou the intersection of data and politics and data driven mech nexts of campaigns. how do you make sense of the argument john is making? >> it's a remarkable data set which is all of this panel polling throughout the year. i do think there is a difference in saying something did not have an immediate effect on the top level horse race and it did not have an impact on the outcome of the election. >> that video you showed that

set off the hillary rosen thing, the conduct todd thing was him saying this is not going to sper sidewaysively change people's opinions the doc is raising money off. that what we know about where our votes come from, from mobilization registration, a lot of that, the best way to change the eeelectorate, if hypothetically the dnc got new names, people think they can convert into volunteers or they raise money through fundraising they put into field offices with supported field activity. the downstream effects is something the data sets you use wouldn't be able pick up. so i think there is a difference between saying yes this moved the horse race in the week following the event and this created a chain of events we don't have the capacity to measure. >> so how do you, because you have to write the stories every day about all these events that are happening, whether it's the 47%, hillary rosen, the companies you are talking about. how do you sort of in your mind

brake down, i want to highlight this stretch this, am i overplaying this? how do you make sense of the day-to-day things you are confronted with? >> ding, ding, ding, how does it work? >> actually, because i know that, and we all know that politics, there is only one way to win a campaign, campaigns would only use one way, everything that my cle colleagues here are talking about are the components of a campaign. so day to day you look at the story of the day, obviously, 47% videotape is there. campaigns know that there is many moving objects. you have to look at the a big national pick a. presidential campaign is one in states and counties and this is a case where what you measure, john is very important because it's anything that enforms decision makers in campaigns is what they're hungry for from yard signs to big polls to speeches and in the end, why people vote and what motivates, the true

undecideds. in a campaign, first you have to make sure your base is locked in. in presidential, you are plotting over people who can't make up their mind with an abundance of information or are persuadable. what they react to. that's what it comes down to. so you pay be impacted by commercial. you may be hit by direct mail. you may be influenced by social media and you may just go on the web and read every policy paper. because it's a small number of people, companies have to be -- >> in general, when i read that quote, i should have learned the foundation, that quote at the beginning gets that way, i think some people see the limits of political science. it's sort of what len is saying here, you can look at maybe the data and say i can find no direct correlation in the polling data between 47%, people saying in exit polls, this is what motivated them. but if you take this as a

persuadable voter, the small amount that remain, hair in the election booth and trying to take stock of just all the assault on their brains in the last six months of living this campaign. is this impression by romney by the 47%, by these wealth gaps, by that disastrous trip, did that all sort of congeal in a way you can't measure maybe? >> i'm not sure about it. it depends on what we are talking about, besides psychology, longstanding study of sciences, thoeng i don't think they stand outside of scientific inquiry. if one can think about things like the voters' impressions of the candidates, like people, we can ask questions about those things, too. and we did in our book. we looked at people's per ception, did they like obama? did they think these candidates cared about the middle las? obama had advantages on those

indicators throughout the campaign. were those advantages large enough to you know constitute his margin of victory in a national popular vote? no. so if romney closed those gaps, would he have won? in general, i'm sim pa thet ec to the measure we can't measure everything. bill james the famous father in baseball said the alternative to the statistics is not no statistics. it's bad statistics. >> i'm happy that people like lynn are talking to people leak john about this stuff. you guys have two very different jobs. you call yourself a campaign reporter. you call somebody that does election studies. i think the difference between looking at campaigns and elections is really important. this isn't just semantic. . so fundamentally the question that runs through your whole book is do these various things of companies or candidates or outside groups do have a measurable impact that can exla enthe outcome of an election? it is more interesting to you if it's a 2-point race or 12-point

race because certain things you measure can explain the mar jen or not. there are all sorts of reasons to write about what happens in a campaign, what the candidates are saying. what their allies can doing. it enforms often how they govern whether or not the reason, the stories the obama people tell themselves why they won are influencing a lot of decisions they make in terms of governing. the way they see their coalition, there are a lot of different ways can you have a 58 of 41 split in this country. depending on the story of how you tell yourself how you won dramatically changes. >> that's a question to pick up. we have people from diverse viewpoints here approaching how to read an lex. how do you determine the reason he did win? we'll each of you that when we come back.

. >> so i remember, i used to cover politics in new jersey, there is this senate race, john core sign, the multi-billionaire, whatever he was, it was the year al gore won new jersey in a landslide by 17 points and karzai barely won. the same new jersey was john core sign won the election but bob flampgs won the company, because he came so much closer against all that money. i wanted to apply that question looking at 2012. did obama win -- is the result we saw last year the victory is that a result of obama winning the campaign? is there things he firmly did or the result of structural factors? >> i think it's us as a combination of both. i want to go back to one thing we were talking about voting is an emotional experience for people. there is all kind of brain

research that shows it's not an intellectual experience. democrats say why are people voting against their economic interest? they're not. it's their morals and values. to that point, it's very hard to truly measure what it is that makes somebody vote one way or the other. i think for president obama that being said, knowing that people are not legits and hard to measure, they said, okay, we need to hang the electorate and know where those voters are. they would know on a single street how many people they need to talk to. exactly what messages they need for the communicate to those people to get them to pay attention to or listen to or engage in their campaign. they had a sophisticated strategy then, once you sign up for the website. would you host something, again, it's a very sophisticated way of going out and finding people knowing that when you can put a $100,000 ad by that, you don't

necessarily know you are swaying voters. you want to have if science written about this to be able to know where your voters are. >> can we put a number on what the grass roots engage. ? we hear so much about obama's outreach. can we put a number on what that was worth to obama last year? >> sure. what was the question? >> so we took the county level data, we counted up how many field offices each had in each county. we looked to see if that was advocated with their vote share how well obama did if 28 and a bunch of other factors. we found each obama field office was probably worth about .2 of a point of vote share perhaps up to about creating field offices. >> what does that translate to nationally? a 5 million -- >> the results? >> i'm curious. >> we did this. several, all the political science studies of the relationship between field offices and county vote share found you are talking maybe

300,000 votes nationwide. >> they're selling units, right? >> i was in obama field office the size of a closet. if you go on the website, you geocode them and the counties which are frankly useless political unit for campaigns in the 21st century. they were useful for assigning judges on the 19th. just because the data is organized, you guys analyze it. i don't think that's a particularly effective way of measuring. >> there are many caveats that catch that anal says in the book. obviously, we don't have the individual level of data a campaign would have within they can tell you we contacted that person this many times. let me tell you what the obama company would say in response to this question. lynn and i interviewed the geekiest people in the obama company. we've asked them of the 4 point national vote margin, how much do you think was attributable to the company did.

dan wagner said i don't know. dave nexterson the director of experiments said i don't know that number. the national field director said i don't know that number. so i think that gives them the point, that's one of the reasons we pushed back against game changers. we do the best we can to measure the effects of the campaign. sasha points out, that's absolutely true, these are not perfect ways of measuring things, at the same time this is a difficult question to answer. i think the obama campaign the smart guys will not tell you. >> lynn, you watched it. you wrote about it every day. when you looked back at everything you covered in the final result, what do you think? why do you think obama won last year? >> i want to follow up on karen's point. they had the data to know how many voters they needed to bring in to make up for their deficit. so you use all the information that you have. you realize we are behind x in this preseat or however they want to define it. so they have the ability to say there is no more persuadables

left t. bases are locked in. our pluses are solid our minuses will gefr go for us. they have the ability much better than romney partly because they had their strength in urban areas where you had an economy to scale to go out and find new ones. think of customers for your product. if you need to sell more toothpaste and you have people locked into their brands and want to increase sales, you have to go out and get new customers. i think that is a very important point because then you had something no one else could have. >> that i think messina was data dremp from day one. they knew that was one of their tools at their disposal. >> how much of that is dependent on the messages coming through the media? this is a xaven want to be a part of? >> here's the thing, you have to do all of it.

>> that is the real yity of modn campaigning, you have to knock on doors, do yard sign, you have to make sure you have good data, good polling, good research. you got to try to understand what messages will move which voters and where those voters are. you really have to do everything. that's part of what i think the obama cane. >> the two studies. >> that idea of you have to do everything. you guys, it's more from a strekter political science, do you agree with that? >> it's something we know from field experiments, replicated in all sorts of settings. campaigns regularly do not work. robo-calls do nothing to increase turnout. we seen this in an infinite number of studies smart folks on the left more alert to the academia or been involved in some studies don't spend money for robo-calls. they might use them to build a crowd for an event or something

else. that's measurable. at an individual level we can see, we know the best way to mobilize a fawn voter, is a high quality interaction at their door with a certain type of skricht. the challenge is building upping a gre gath up all those interactions when you don't have the campaign's information about the number of voters and types of interactions they had, trying to disaggregate from the total vote share based on the visible outputs of the campaign, campaign office, spending, is, you know, is i think to some degree a fool's errand. i agree with john, the smartest people i talk to in politics, the an litically fist indicate reasonable doubt the ones who have the greatest appreciation for how little we know and knowing how good scenes we have, you realize the small share the campaigns do and spend money on. >> let me stand on one final

thing. john, the bottom line question when you look back at 2012, president obama winning, what mattered most? >> all of the work that a cane does was in a national climate and context they cannot change and if the economy had been slowing down, if barak obama's approval rating was where it is now versus in the fall of 2012, he likely would have lost. there is no amount of data or field work, no amount of sophistication that can change that factor. it's not the only factor of the matter. when you look at 2012, you have to say that the primary driver of his success was the fact that he was an incumbent president rung agree midst a glowing economy. a slowly glowing economy. >> it's a race to 270. it's the stakes we are talking about. we haven't brought in that factor. a lot of things florida versus ohio. remember at the end of the day, it's about getting to the numbers. >> the states move in the same direction year by year on the

national. this is a whole another discussion we will do another time. there was a little bit of talk, a little imbalance there. a slight advantage for the democrats now. at least in 2012 from a tipping point state. anyway. we have done dising a gre gaegs. now we will take a break from this. my thanks today, the chicago sun times, the gambles, sasha eisen berg and week msnbc colleague. up against the clock colleague container finney. i am guessing you are learning more by now. why exactly is this story so irresistible to us? we will help that out with a funny canadian. that's next.

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. >>. >> imagine there is a skillful way, this tells me this isn't it. >> folks, reminds me of when i was watching with my brother when sudan attacked kuwait and

president bush said i warn you, i warn you, i warn you, do not. if you think american style politics is nasty, you guys have just attacked kuwait. >> toronto mayor rob ford probably didn't when off tis ortory with tactics like that. either what he has done is when he devotes attention to the american news media, the lower 48's obsession with the mayor of toronto. what is all that about? that's straight ahead. .

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you get your coffee here. you get your hair cut here. you find that certain thing you were looking for here, but actually you get so much more. when you shop at these small local businesses, you support all the things that make your community great. the money you spend here, stays here. in this place you call your neighborhood. small business saturday is november 30th. get out and shop small. >> to be honest with you, ford news can be a hard sell in the news business, american personnel are involved a. president is visiting some place overseas, something truly horrific happens, no matter how worthy they are, it's hard for stories about other countries and international events to

resonate with audiences here i learned that in my current job here. of course, that doesn't mean there aren't any exceptions. an exception like rob ford mayor of trompbt, canada. a man in charge of the fourth largest city in north america is big, big news these days in america. he's an other than e american obsession, in fact, for the way he companied on an anti-tax end the gravy train platform, not for his out with the suburbs, perhaps you and just about everything emp else in the united states have caught a video that surfaced this year in which he was allegedly caught on tape smoking crack. with understand the toronto police said, yeah, we have seen footage of him smoking crack t. mayor seemed compelled to come clean at a press conference. >> yes, i have smoked crack cocaine. but, no, do i? am i an addict? no. have i tried it? umm, probably in one of my drunken stupors probably

approximately about a year ago. i answered your question. you asked the question properly, i'll answer it. yes, i've made mistakes. >> then once again, last week rob ford left reporters speechless. >> the last thing was olivia dondek i wanted to eat her. i've never said that in my life to her. >> oh my god. >> i know a lie. i don't know if we can, mayor ford is speaking as mayor ford does very plainly as he said in council yesterday, he fed up. now, using language we can't broadcast on tv. another unbelievable day here at toronto city council. >> i'm not sure we with broadcast that with the bleeps. it's 8:30 in the morning. on monday, the toronto security council stripped ford of 80% of his power to the deputy mayor.

rob ford nearly ran over a member of the council. maybe you have seen the idea. maybe you heard that ford has refused to resign. he was back out in public thursday drawing more laughs. >> we reduce councils and the mayor's budget by $6.4 million over four years, even more in the last three days. >> america used to have its own version of rob ford more than 40 years ago, his name was marion barry the mayor of washington, d.c. caught smoking crack. just this week a sitting congressman from florida pleaded guilty to cocaine possession. the story got some attention, not anything like hurricane rob has gotten. so what is it about rob ford's story so irresistible to americans? why are we obsessed with every last detail about a municipal

leader from canada. here to talk about that is msnbc's trey who hosted my former show "the cycle." as is republican strategic jo watkins and i am happy to extend a warm welcome to our resident comedienne expert today. she is actress and comedienne and natural born canadian caroline rea. thank you for joining us. your native country canada does not tend to get too much press car only in the united states, as a canadian, are you happy it's getting attention or are you embarrassed for this? >> you know when i was a kid, i thought bronze would be the highest you could get. i thought there was nothing beyond. that we are a humble people. it will take three hours to get through the door in canada, after you, after you, after you, it's like endless, americans not that you are not knowledgeable in general, oh my god, from

canada, it's one of our favorite cities. it's not like a big thing. we do have all the oil and gold so it's time to suck up. i'm saying it's time to really take care of us. but this kind of behavior is so uncanadian. >> is that a part of what makes it, americans have that image? >> i think this is maybe the first time canada is relatable to the united states. oh, the guy is acting like an american. it's unbelievable. you have the tea party. he has the party marty. fats what he wants. only my cade instinct. i look at him and think it's so embarrassing, i want him to stop talking and get some help t. poor guy. i say poor i mean he's got this whole thing, deny, then lie, then admit. >> that is a cycle for politicians americanling can definitely relate to. is that why americans are so fascinated, they are watching a

spectacle unfold in a country they don't expect it to unfold in? >> for news media folks, it makes us feel any time we mention rob ford, everybody starts laughing. you don't have to say anything smart. everybody starts laughing. even this idea of i got drunk and we did crack and i'm sorry. i'm like, wait a minute, how did you get from the drunken -- >> stupor. >> are you at a bar where people are selling crack. hey, mayor, i got crack on me. do you want to take this up a notch? yeager meister? >> no, i got crack. slow down. for americans it doesn't make us reflect on anything who are we as a society? what's going on? weiner made us wonder about that, philner made us wonder about that spitzer made us think about that. rob ford it doesn't reflect ounce. we can point and laugh. >> i think a lot of people in america have issues like rob ford. >> you are absolutely right. we have that di divide, he is

from toronto, what does the say about america? but there is a serious substance abecause problem that is marking the story. we are pointing and laughing pause we don't take substance abuse and addiction as seriously as a bipolarism or other sort of things or depression with other things. >> and there is leak let me bring it back to the game show. i said florida congressman, trey radel bleed guilty after a cocaine bust. most people did, americans are not nearly as interested in the spectacle of trey radel as they are in rob ford. >> i think in fairness because there isn't as much of a spec cal. he was ae rested, promptly yes, i was arrested. it's a terrible thing. i think those of us that knew more about him found it funny,

earlier this week they were like earlier this year he was called the hip-hop republican. >> what does that mean? >> there is no spect cam there. i think with rob ford for all of the legitimate issues of substance abuse that are there. he is a spect cam of a kind we haven't seen in the united states in a while. >> oh, yes you have. >> who is the american rob ford? >> i mean there are elements of -- chris christie when he's in a bad mood. >> oh, no. no. >> he's a joe six-pack guy. this is a guy that drives himself to work. >> more than a six-pack. >> oh. >> he gives his constituents his home phone number. there you go. >> are you referencing to marion barry was smart. in america, we have people doing

powder cocaine. when you do crack, it takes it to a whole other level. >> the problem is the difference between powder crack. >> we made a difference in america. >> crack is a black drug. there is something i think basking. >> in a working class problem white or black. >> joe six-pack guy. >> if rob ford were doing meth, it would be a spectacle. i don't think it would inspire the same kind of spectacle for americans there is something particular about a white man using crack. >> to what you say, radel hand handled it properly. rob ford keeps saying dumb things. there is new comments every tame he gets in front of a microphone so where how did he not become a spect cam a year ago? >> a poll came out this morning showing rob ford at 42% among

torontonian torontonians. >> torontonians that were surveyed. most don't want to answer a survey about rob ford. >> i think there is something, he said he would run for re-election. there is something a little appealing about a guy who will put out his public problems so forthrightly. >> he denied it. until he denies until it's made public. you are absolutely right there is nothing to worry about. >> you asked me if i'm a crack addict. ask me the right question. >> he gave the ultimate qualifier. i may have been in a drunken stupor, all bets are off. marion barry got busted in 1990. in 1994, he came back and won the mayorality of washington, d.c. i want to turn this about and understand rob ford from the perspective of cads. canadians.

what do they see in him in we will talk to her right after this. .

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. >> this is nothing more than a coup d'etat and if you don't know what a coup d'etat means, it means that you are overruling a government and some people said this is a democracy. what's happening here today is not a democratic process. it's a dictatorship process. >> what is he talking about? >> that was mayor rob ford. we can play those all morning. caroline, we get into the polling that says still at 42%. the fact that he continues as not the most well-spoken guy to begin with without all this tell us a little about what is it about toronto that made them elect a well-spoken platform, it's the fourth largest city in america. what do we need to know? >> he will hide behind the mind.

speak for canada yet again. in that clip when he said if you don't know what coup d'etat, neither do i. but i think i have pronounced it correctly. so i will go for two bonus points. canada, toronto is pretty much the financial city. this is like the anti-establish. vote instead of the repressed canadian. this is for the people that felt unrepresented. >> so is it like a tea party of torontonians? >> there is coke in his name. little puns to make. also, i want to see the headline, if he lived in america it would be q-wait. q-weight. >> the new york post. >> the souvenir question. >> what do you think, again, speak for all of canada here. the fact that americans are making such a big deal about this and canadians are perpetually ignored by americans. we were ignored this whole time. i feel there are psychics all

over the world and chris farley is trying to come through, biggest opportunity i can't play this guy. i think americans want it to go away. that's what canadians do. they don't want to. i don't know if it's obsess it like it is here. i don't know who is speaking for america in my particular seat. representing all of america and canada. i feel so bad every time you show a picture of him. i do. i feel like he's the biggest loser contestant in lots of ways. he seems like a tragic physical. >> back to like intervention. there should be folks, he says he is getting help for his drinking thing. i don't know if they are doing that as political cover. as mayor, he has this sort of cover, right, that you can bolster around him in that we don't have to jump, you don't have to force him. he needs an intervention. he needs to stop talking to reporters, stop drink, go away for a little while.

>> that is something we have seen here, we have seen with politicians in the united states like anthony weiner, they keeps. they become the butt of a joke, and they don't get it and they keep talking and keep giving fodder. we see that a lot. >> trying to move forward, right? and we keep bringing it back. he keeps bringing it there. he won't stop talking! coup d'etats and all this. >> caroline wishes it would go away, doesn't like this. are there politicians like that in the united states who we look at, like, i don't want this politician representing our country to the rest of the world? >> you know what, the prime minister just commented on it sort of like -- i think he's quite -- the communities are easily embarrassed. there was a member of parliament -- this is years ago, called the prime minister a liar and they said you will refrain from doing that. in her final comments, she said

"pants on fire." that's comedian politics to me. we are so subtle about it. this guy could be american, don't you think? >> very much so. totally unscripted. he says what he thinks. that's why we watch. each word is more incredible than the word before. i think he's an original. the reason we're so into this is this guy is an original, not necessarily in the best sense of the word but he's authentic and original. there's nobody else like him anywhere, certainly not in canada. >> so rob ford is a populous figure and i think americans are unaccustomed to seeing this canadian conservative populism. that's what drove his political star. that's what will keep him in office. as a political analyst, that's fascinating to watch. >> there's a little paula pag--

paul lepage. you'll see a lot of interesting statements that could rival rob ford. what do we know now that we didn't last week? easier to get a new passat, awarded j.d. power's most appealing midsize car, two years in a row. and right now you can drive one home for practically just your signature. get zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first month's payment on any new 2014 volkswagen. hurry, this offer ends december 2nd. for details, visit vwdealer.com today it fills you with energy... and it gives you what you are looking for to live a more natural life. in a convenient two bar pack. this is nature valley. nature at its most delicious.

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time to find out what our guests know that they didn't know when the week began. joe? >> i didn't know about the knockout game, a horrible game where people go after somebody and sucker punch them. it's a terrible thing. really scary. >> caroline? >> i didn't know how beautiful your teeth were before i was on this show. i have a 5-year-old. now i have to save so much money for orthodonture because my daughter has a little space. she's adorable. but i want her to have teeth like you. also, i'm horrified by that.

and i didn't know i was an expert on canada. >> you've made me extraordinarily self-conscious about my own teeth. >> wow. >> i did not woe know the word filibuster came from a dutch word related to pirates. it used to be related to people who stole treasure. now it's related to people who steal time and power. >> so is a filibuster an arggh? a little pirate joke. >> i did not know that the affordable care act had slowed health care -- oh, health care spending growth in the united states has slowed to its lowest growth in years, probably due in large part to obama care. it's important to recognize the law has the a ton of moving parts and one is this cost control mechanism. problems with insurance for -- by a million people, but this is a big and important part of what the law is trying to do. >> the end to the pirate one. >> arggh!

>> thanks for getting up up this morning. thanks for joining us today. tune in tomorrow at 8:00. brian schweitzer, the very colorful democrat who used to be governor of the red state of montana will join us. he'll bring his branding iron with him. up next, today a particularly good one for all of you lbj junkies out there. melissa harris-perry, how we are still in the era of lyndon johnson. that is next. first, i want a way to help minimize my blood sugar spikes. then, a way to support heart health. ♪ and let's not forget immune support. ♪ but now i have new glucerna advance with three benefits in one. including carbsteady ultra to help minimize blood sugar spikes. it's the best from glucerna. [ male announcer ] new glucerna advance. from the brand doctors recommend most. advancing nutrition for diabetes. from the brand doctors recommend most. we've been bringing people together. today, we'd like people to come together

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